Suicide - do you believe the caputre of suicide in Finland (Nordics for that matter) is the same as in Turkey. If you make assuptions based upon statistics it is most important to analyze how tHey are collected - or?
Have always appreciated tour presentations at GE - but hope you had better basis for you conclusions.
Hi Hans, I appreciate your comment, let me see if I understand it correctly. I think you are saying that we should be careful in evaluating the quality of the statistics, and for example, that the quality of suicide statistics in Finland and Turkey might not be comparable. Indeed, you are right, the WHO rates the quality of Turkey's suicide data one notch lower than Finland's. (on a 1-4 scale). I don't know if that is sufficient to explain Finland's suicide rate being as much as 6x that of Turkey. I presented that difference as a puzzle, and indeed as something that suggests there should be continued efforts to improve the quality of data -- including those on happiness.
However the main conclusion I put forward, namely that there is a strong positive correlation between happiness and median real incomes, seems quite robust based on the data we have .
Your point on the importance of the data quality is very valid, and I have argued along the same lines in the blog. But my main conclusion seems robust based on the data, unless we completely dismiss the happiness index.
So, I hope we are not too far. My view is that we should think through what conclusions we can get from the data, while keeping in mind that the data are never perfect. You highlighted a very good example. Taking all data at face value is often misleading -- but so is dismissing out of hand the data we do not like.
I hope we can agree on this, and hope you will still keep a constructively critical eye on my posts even if this one disappointed you
Marco. I miss our discussions.! I am surprised that the discussion of happiness and money is inverted. Personal fulfillment engenders happiness and people who achieve it are by and larger more productive and thus accumulate greater rewards including fortune , fame and power. Money doesnt create happiness. HAPPINESS follows fulfillment and success whicH results in rewards. Money doesn't assure happiness but success more often assures happiness. American are happier because we are more succesaful and there for both rich and wealthy We could have fun parsing that
I miss them too! We should fix that. I tend to agree with you. An economist's version of the argument would be that most of us seek fulfillment in doing something that others will value and appreciate, and doing it well. The rewards will often come in the form of recognition, fulfillment, and income -- hence the correlation. But a lot more to parse here, let's talk soon!
I asked ChatGPT to find more support to some of the hypotheses.
### Reliability of Self-Reported Happiness Surveys
1. **Validity and Reliability of the Satisfaction with Life Scale (SWLS)**:
The SWLS, developed by Ed Diener, is a widely used tool for measuring life satisfaction. Studies have consistently shown that the SWLS has high internal consistency, with Cronbach's alpha values often exceeding 0.80, indicating excellent reliability. Test-retest reliability is also robust, with correlations typically above 0.80 over periods ranging from two months to four years. This demonstrates that the SWLS produces stable results over time. Furthermore, the scale has been validated across various cultures and languages, confirming its construct validity and making it a reliable measure for comparative studies on subjective well-being (SWB) (SpringerLink, MDPI).
2. **Use of Antidepressants in High-Ranking Happiness Countries**:
The observation that countries like Finland, Denmark, Iceland, and Sweden, which rank high in happiness, also have high rates of antidepressant use, suggests a complex relationship between mental health and happiness. High antidepressant usage may reflect better mental health awareness, diagnosis, and treatment availability rather than higher levels of depression. Studies indicate that access to mental health services can lead to higher reported happiness by addressing and managing mental health issues effectively. Thus, the use of antidepressants in these countries might be indicative of proactive mental health care rather than an underlying mental health crisis (Frontiers, MDPI).
3. **Suicide Rates and Happiness**:
The paradox of high happiness scores coexisting with high suicide rates in some countries highlights the multifaceted nature of both happiness and mental health. Suicide rates are influenced by a complex interplay of factors, including cultural attitudes toward mental health, societal pressures, and the availability of mental health resources. High happiness scores might not capture the experiences of the most distressed individuals. Moreover, cultural factors such as the stigma associated with seeking help and the societal response to mental health issues can significantly impact suicide rates. Therefore, while happiness scores provide valuable insights, they may not fully encompass the nuances of mental health and societal well-being (World Population Review, Sustainability).
Thanks Niloy, this is very interesting. My thoughts:
1. seems to confirm quite clearly that the Happiness index is indeed a very reliable indicator of happiness, including in international comparisons. That's good news: to teh question, can we measure happiness? the answer seems to be a clear yes.
2. This is a classic dilemma. High rates of antidepressant use in Finland could indicate that more Finnish people are depressed, or that the incidence of depression is the same as in other countries, but Finland does better at addressing mental health issues. If the latter is true, there is no contradiction with Finland's high happiness ranking: people are happier because they have better mental health care. However...
3. This response seems to partly contradict 2. When ChatGPT tells us that "cultural factors such as the stigma associated with seeking help and the societal response to mental health issues can significantly impact suicide rates" I understand it to mean that countries with better mental health care should have fewer suicides. But if we believe 2., then Finland should have fewer suicides. We are left with the other explanation in 3, which was my best guess in the post, namely that suicides are the result of an extreme form of mental suffering which does not get picked up by the happiness survey. I am not yet totally convinced though, because my intuition is that suicides should represent the tail end of a continuum of mental illness, so countries with better mental health and greater happiness should see fewer suicides. But that is clearly not the case, so maybe the more extreme form of mental stress that results in suicides is uncorrelated with overall mental health.
Your observation about the apparent contradiction is astute. Let's address this by reconciling the points and providing a more nuanced explanation.
### Reconciling the Observations
1. **Mental Health Care and Antidepressant Use**:
- **Point 2** highlights that high antidepressant use in countries like Finland may reflect better mental health care and awareness. This suggests that these countries have systems in place to address and manage mental health issues effectively, potentially leading to higher reported happiness despite higher rates of antidepressant usage.
2. **Suicide Rates and Happiness**:
- **Point 3** mentions that high happiness scores can coexist with high suicide rates due to various factors, including cultural attitudes towards mental health, societal pressures, and the nuances of extreme mental suffering.
### Nuanced Explanation
**Better Mental Health Care and Antidepressant Use**:
- In countries with advanced mental health care systems, higher antidepressant use might indicate proactive measures in mental health management. This could lead to higher self-reported happiness because individuals receive the help they need.
- However, the availability and use of antidepressants do not necessarily eliminate extreme mental health crises that can lead to suicides. These are often complex and multifactorial issues.
**Suicide Rates and Mental Health Continuum**:
- Suicide rates do not always correlate directly with overall happiness or average mental health levels. Extreme mental suffering leading to suicide may be influenced by factors not captured in general happiness surveys, such as:
- **Cultural Stigma**: Even in countries with good mental health care, stigma around mental health issues can persist, potentially exacerbating extreme cases.
- **Societal Pressures**: High expectations, social isolation, and other societal pressures may contribute to mental health crises.
- **Environmental Factors**: Factors like long, dark winters in Finland may contribute to seasonal affective disorder, influencing suicide rates.
**Studies Supporting This View**:
- **Durkheim’s Sociological Perspective**: Émile Durkheim’s classical studies on suicide emphasize the role of social integration and regulation. Countries with high social support and cohesion might still face unique stressors leading to higher suicide rates despite overall happiness.
- **Psychological Research**: Studies suggest that while general well-being measures capture a broad picture of societal happiness, they may miss outliers experiencing extreme distress. This can explain why countries with high average happiness scores still face significant suicide rates (Diener et al., 2018; WHO reports).
### Conclusion
The relationship between happiness, mental health care, and suicide rates is complex. While better mental health care can improve overall well-being and reduce some mental health issues, it does not entirely eliminate extreme forms of mental suffering. Therefore, suicide rates may still be high due to unaddressed or particularly severe mental health crises, cultural factors, or environmental conditions. This complexity underscores the need for a multifaceted approach to understanding and improving mental health and happiness.
Marco
What about statitics?
Is happieness only a financial matter?
Suicide - do you believe the caputre of suicide in Finland (Nordics for that matter) is the same as in Turkey. If you make assuptions based upon statistics it is most important to analyze how tHey are collected - or?
Have always appreciated tour presentations at GE - but hope you had better basis for you conclusions.
Sorry..-
Hans
Hi Hans, I appreciate your comment, let me see if I understand it correctly. I think you are saying that we should be careful in evaluating the quality of the statistics, and for example, that the quality of suicide statistics in Finland and Turkey might not be comparable. Indeed, you are right, the WHO rates the quality of Turkey's suicide data one notch lower than Finland's. (on a 1-4 scale). I don't know if that is sufficient to explain Finland's suicide rate being as much as 6x that of Turkey. I presented that difference as a puzzle, and indeed as something that suggests there should be continued efforts to improve the quality of data -- including those on happiness.
However the main conclusion I put forward, namely that there is a strong positive correlation between happiness and median real incomes, seems quite robust based on the data we have .
Your point on the importance of the data quality is very valid, and I have argued along the same lines in the blog. But my main conclusion seems robust based on the data, unless we completely dismiss the happiness index.
So, I hope we are not too far. My view is that we should think through what conclusions we can get from the data, while keeping in mind that the data are never perfect. You highlighted a very good example. Taking all data at face value is often misleading -- but so is dismissing out of hand the data we do not like.
I hope we can agree on this, and hope you will still keep a constructively critical eye on my posts even if this one disappointed you
best -- Marco
Marco. I miss our discussions.! I am surprised that the discussion of happiness and money is inverted. Personal fulfillment engenders happiness and people who achieve it are by and larger more productive and thus accumulate greater rewards including fortune , fame and power. Money doesnt create happiness. HAPPINESS follows fulfillment and success whicH results in rewards. Money doesn't assure happiness but success more often assures happiness. American are happier because we are more succesaful and there for both rich and wealthy We could have fun parsing that
I miss them too! We should fix that. I tend to agree with you. An economist's version of the argument would be that most of us seek fulfillment in doing something that others will value and appreciate, and doing it well. The rewards will often come in the form of recognition, fulfillment, and income -- hence the correlation. But a lot more to parse here, let's talk soon!
I asked ChatGPT to find more support to some of the hypotheses.
### Reliability of Self-Reported Happiness Surveys
1. **Validity and Reliability of the Satisfaction with Life Scale (SWLS)**:
The SWLS, developed by Ed Diener, is a widely used tool for measuring life satisfaction. Studies have consistently shown that the SWLS has high internal consistency, with Cronbach's alpha values often exceeding 0.80, indicating excellent reliability. Test-retest reliability is also robust, with correlations typically above 0.80 over periods ranging from two months to four years. This demonstrates that the SWLS produces stable results over time. Furthermore, the scale has been validated across various cultures and languages, confirming its construct validity and making it a reliable measure for comparative studies on subjective well-being (SWB) (SpringerLink, MDPI).
2. **Use of Antidepressants in High-Ranking Happiness Countries**:
The observation that countries like Finland, Denmark, Iceland, and Sweden, which rank high in happiness, also have high rates of antidepressant use, suggests a complex relationship between mental health and happiness. High antidepressant usage may reflect better mental health awareness, diagnosis, and treatment availability rather than higher levels of depression. Studies indicate that access to mental health services can lead to higher reported happiness by addressing and managing mental health issues effectively. Thus, the use of antidepressants in these countries might be indicative of proactive mental health care rather than an underlying mental health crisis (Frontiers, MDPI).
3. **Suicide Rates and Happiness**:
The paradox of high happiness scores coexisting with high suicide rates in some countries highlights the multifaceted nature of both happiness and mental health. Suicide rates are influenced by a complex interplay of factors, including cultural attitudes toward mental health, societal pressures, and the availability of mental health resources. High happiness scores might not capture the experiences of the most distressed individuals. Moreover, cultural factors such as the stigma associated with seeking help and the societal response to mental health issues can significantly impact suicide rates. Therefore, while happiness scores provide valuable insights, they may not fully encompass the nuances of mental health and societal well-being (World Population Review, Sustainability).
What do you think Marco?
Thanks Niloy, this is very interesting. My thoughts:
1. seems to confirm quite clearly that the Happiness index is indeed a very reliable indicator of happiness, including in international comparisons. That's good news: to teh question, can we measure happiness? the answer seems to be a clear yes.
2. This is a classic dilemma. High rates of antidepressant use in Finland could indicate that more Finnish people are depressed, or that the incidence of depression is the same as in other countries, but Finland does better at addressing mental health issues. If the latter is true, there is no contradiction with Finland's high happiness ranking: people are happier because they have better mental health care. However...
3. This response seems to partly contradict 2. When ChatGPT tells us that "cultural factors such as the stigma associated with seeking help and the societal response to mental health issues can significantly impact suicide rates" I understand it to mean that countries with better mental health care should have fewer suicides. But if we believe 2., then Finland should have fewer suicides. We are left with the other explanation in 3, which was my best guess in the post, namely that suicides are the result of an extreme form of mental suffering which does not get picked up by the happiness survey. I am not yet totally convinced though, because my intuition is that suicides should represent the tail end of a continuum of mental illness, so countries with better mental health and greater happiness should see fewer suicides. But that is clearly not the case, so maybe the more extreme form of mental stress that results in suicides is uncorrelated with overall mental health.
Your observation about the apparent contradiction is astute. Let's address this by reconciling the points and providing a more nuanced explanation.
### Reconciling the Observations
1. **Mental Health Care and Antidepressant Use**:
- **Point 2** highlights that high antidepressant use in countries like Finland may reflect better mental health care and awareness. This suggests that these countries have systems in place to address and manage mental health issues effectively, potentially leading to higher reported happiness despite higher rates of antidepressant usage.
2. **Suicide Rates and Happiness**:
- **Point 3** mentions that high happiness scores can coexist with high suicide rates due to various factors, including cultural attitudes towards mental health, societal pressures, and the nuances of extreme mental suffering.
### Nuanced Explanation
**Better Mental Health Care and Antidepressant Use**:
- In countries with advanced mental health care systems, higher antidepressant use might indicate proactive measures in mental health management. This could lead to higher self-reported happiness because individuals receive the help they need.
- However, the availability and use of antidepressants do not necessarily eliminate extreme mental health crises that can lead to suicides. These are often complex and multifactorial issues.
**Suicide Rates and Mental Health Continuum**:
- Suicide rates do not always correlate directly with overall happiness or average mental health levels. Extreme mental suffering leading to suicide may be influenced by factors not captured in general happiness surveys, such as:
- **Cultural Stigma**: Even in countries with good mental health care, stigma around mental health issues can persist, potentially exacerbating extreme cases.
- **Societal Pressures**: High expectations, social isolation, and other societal pressures may contribute to mental health crises.
- **Environmental Factors**: Factors like long, dark winters in Finland may contribute to seasonal affective disorder, influencing suicide rates.
**Studies Supporting This View**:
- **Durkheim’s Sociological Perspective**: Émile Durkheim’s classical studies on suicide emphasize the role of social integration and regulation. Countries with high social support and cohesion might still face unique stressors leading to higher suicide rates despite overall happiness.
- **Psychological Research**: Studies suggest that while general well-being measures capture a broad picture of societal happiness, they may miss outliers experiencing extreme distress. This can explain why countries with high average happiness scores still face significant suicide rates (Diener et al., 2018; WHO reports).
### Conclusion
The relationship between happiness, mental health care, and suicide rates is complex. While better mental health care can improve overall well-being and reduce some mental health issues, it does not entirely eliminate extreme forms of mental suffering. Therefore, suicide rates may still be high due to unaddressed or particularly severe mental health crises, cultural factors, or environmental conditions. This complexity underscores the need for a multifaceted approach to understanding and improving mental health and happiness.
Now we're getting somewhere!